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spikegifted - Random thoughts

 

Israel running amok or what?

February 26, 2004

[Originally posted by dual_celeron]

Recent raids on 4 different palestinian banks are nuts. Apparently they herded all employees in a separate room while the Israelis open the main vault. So far it's estimated they've stolen between $6.7 and $9 million dollars.

Perhaps it's time for Bush to do a bit more than "slapping hands" (verbal scolding) this time.

It just gets more insane over there every month. Talk about "armed" robbery. I wonder what's next in the name of "fighting terrorism". Pfft.

Linky.

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Saeb Erekat, the Palestinian minister for negotiations, said the action could damage financial confidence and spark a run on the banks.
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Soldiers entered the banks and covered closed circuit television cameras with sacks before checking the identity of customers and allowing them to leave.
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February 26, 2004

 

While it is true that there isn't a single country in the world has the right to interfere with the running of another country, the US has been such strong support of the Israelis for over half a century that I'm sure if the US administration choose to make a big deal out of any issues, the Israelis will take notice.

Sometimes, I feel that the US is in fact trying very hard to shoot herself in the foot... For a sake of an inconsequential strip of land that is considered 'holy', the US makes herself an enemy to over 20% of the world population, along with much of the global oil supplies! I've said this before and I'll say it again - the hostility faced by the US is the direct consequence of several generations of ill-judged foreign policies. The US and the West may have won the Cold War, against a 'real' enemy, but in return, they're now loosing against a war against a 'hidden' enemy...

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February 26, 2004

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I say open warfair between Isrial and Palistine is long over due and that is the only way to remove those in power that support this conflict as it exists today.YA CANT NEGOTIATE WITH PEOPLE SWORN TO KILL YOU.. bring them to battle hold them accountable by the sword they are so willing to send others to use. WHO CARES WHO OWNED THE LAND 1000 YEARS AGO,,Fight it out let the spoils go to the victor...
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It is rather disturbing reading your message... I'm not going to comment your stance regarding the war with Iraq, this forum has been over that enough times and it is not the topic of this thread.

I'm curious as to whether you have any understanding of the kind of living conditions in the Palestinian are subjected to by the Israelis? Additionally, I wonder if you ever been in a completely hopeless situation? The founders of the United States of America were living in what they considered a hopeless situation - high taxation, naval blockade and armed oppression. So what did they do? They rebelled, they fought back, they employed guerrilla tactics to attack the British patrols. Most able-bodies joined the republicans / revolutionaries. How different were these actions compared with what the Palestinians are doing? They’re simply doing what they can to ‘free’ themselves.

Don’t even try to complain that with useless excuses like: “That was then, this is now. We live in a different world” or “But freedom is our right” or anything else. To make an argument against the overall motive of the Palestinians is as blatant as to say: “They’re Muslims / Arabs, what do they know about freedom.”

We’re not talking about ancient history here. Moreover, it’s not as if Palestine was an empty stretch of land - the Palestinians were living in there for good few hundred years or more, getting on with their lives. One day, the Israelis arrived and said: “You’re living on our land - the ‘bible’ said so.” Great! What are we going to do now? The Israelis were no more than invaders. Imagine some American Indians walk into your neighborhood and tell you to get out because you’re living on their land! You’d fight tooth and nail to keep what you’d consider yours.

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February 26, 2004

The birth of Israel

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February 27, 2004

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dual_celeron: you are quite incorrect. the aid given to the israeli goverment is divided into 2 parts: about 1b military and 3b civillian aid. in both cases the money must be spent on US products.

beside that there is about 10b load guarentees, but this is not a direct money transfer.

I really hope the US will stop this aid to the israeli goverment (hopefully it will make them think a little bit) but since it involves politics and not common sense this wont happen anytime soon.
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Why the Israels need US aid is beyond comprehension... This comes directly from the CIA World FactBook - GDP per capital in terms of purchasing power:

Israel - purchasing power parity - $19,500 (2002 est.)
West Bank - purchasing power parity - $800 (2002 est.)
Kuwait - purchasing power parity - $17,500 (2002 est.) - This being the richest Arab state.

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February 29, 2004

nipster:

You're speaking my mind on this... I was wondering about Jayllo's comment and I was thinking to myself: "He's either making a joke out of it or he needs help..."

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March 2, 2004

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Question: How exactly would nipster go about finding suspected terrorist that are terrorizing your neck of the woods? You can only do so much when you're in Isreals' position.
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I think the key word here is 'suspect'...

We live in a world where we believe in liberty, freedom, democracy and every person is innocent until proven guilty. What we have been witnessing of late is the horrible scenario where suspects are hunted down by the power-to-be, who conveniently also acts as judge, jury and executioner. The very ideals that we hold so dear are being infringed for the sake of 'protection'.

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March 2, 2004

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And there are times when democracies who want to live with those ideals have to protect themselves. if it is at some other nation expanse, so be it, you cant please everyone.
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What you are saying is unfortunately true. However, it is also only one side of the story.

- If Israel hasn't been targeting 'terrorists' in the West Bank and Gaza Strip in the past couple of years, there would be fewer suicide bombers. The Israel strikes are simply giving the extremists more excuses!

- Why don't the Israelis completely remove themselves from their settlements from the West Bank? The land is not part of Israel, even the Israel government agree with that. Yet, militant Israelis are allow to stay, illegally, on a piece of land that they've no rights? (Don't even try quote the 'bible' on me! )

- By erecting a wall, the Israelis simply perpetuating problems that they've created themselves and make the lives of Palestinians a complete misery. By isolating them, they're simply breeding more extremist and terrorists. The wall is not going to stop suicide bombers, they just give the Israelis a false sense of security - so the next bombing will be even more shocking...

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March 2, 2004

I don't have any in-depth understanding of the true working of Israeli politics and political system. However, I have a feeling that it is a fairly good example of a representative government with the largest party or coalition performing the executive function (unlike in the US, where the executive function is elected separately from the legislative branch).

That's the part that scares me the most... In order for the right-wing party/parties to be elected and able to form a stable coalition, it has to have, to some degree, popular support. This directly translate to a country where there's a significant proportion (it may even be a majority, but, again, the lack of a thorough understanding of electoral system in Israel prevents me from saying one or the other with certainty) of people who likes or support the ideas put forward by the right-wing party/parties. Based on my limited understanding of Israel politics, for the right-wing folks, when you say 'Palestinians' you don't hear 'peace' in reply. There is an innate mistrust against the Palestinians, which is understandable as their actions doesn't exactly make them saints. However, the aggressive policies pursued by the Israeli right-wing groups are not giving anything close to peace a chance and hence the cycle of violence just keep going round and round...

IMHO, what is needed is a completely fresh approach to the whole Israeli/Palestinian problem.

- There needs to be some kind of 'moratorium', a cease fire of sort, and a line in the sand to just say 'let by-gone be by-gone, we start a new clean page here.' Without that, there's always the baggage of history being carried to the negotiation table.

- There needs to be a referee engage both sides and get both sides to toll the line.

- There needs to be some fixed reference point to start the negotiation: ie.
+complete stop to violence from both sides;
+Israel has a right to exist;
+West Bank and Gazza Strip are Palestinian territories and Israeli settlements should not be allow remain or restarted;
+there should be physical division between Israeli and Palestinian territories but only on internationally recognized borders with controls;
+no land grab and completely giving up territory claims by both sides;
+nearly everything else is negotiable...

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March 3, 2004

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But it's a question that will never occur to the American public because, so long as America's mainstream media, Congress and president maintain their pact of silence, few Americans will ever know the true cost of Israel to U.S. taxpayers.
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That is an excellent piece of writing, very well researched!

What is the true cost of Israel to the US taxpayer? I don’t know about the financial costs associated with it, but it is arguable about the following:

US support for Israel has also followed by a series of poor policy decision making involving the Middle East. These include support for the Iranian Shah, although it was a corrupt regime with lots of human rights issues. Support for Saddam’s regime at the time of the Iraq-Iran War, even though Saddam is no saint, although he was seen as the lesser of two evils compared with the Islamic Republic of Iran. These and other similar poor judged policy decisions made during the 1970’s and 1980’s led to the general mistrust of US intentions by the rulers and people of Middle Eastern countries (outside Israel). Moreover, subsequent to Gulf War ’91, the US insistence in maintaining a presence in Saudi Arabia, for the sake of ‘protecting’ the country (yeah, right! Iraq just had it’s a$$ kicked and has little or no offensive capabilities) and Shi’is in the south of Iraq (what’s the point of a no-fly zone when the Iraqi airforce had disappeared?), led, indirectly, to the evil events of September 11, 2001...

What is the true cost of US support for Israel? I don’t know. However, a series of ill-judged policies towards the Middle East which were motivated for the sake of having a ‘presence’ in the region (either to ‘secure’ the US’s national interests or to support its ally - Israel) has caused an unnecessary loss of American lives.


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